LEADERSHIP | How to become a more strategic communicator by managing social presence. w/Dr. Jeanine Turner

Jeanine Turner, Ph.D. and Georgetown University Professor, shares insights from her book "Being Present: Commanding Attention at Work (and at Home) by Managing Your Social Presence." Social presence, our connection to another person in conversation, is scarce. The global pandemic, where your home accommodated work and family life, illustrated the increased strain on attention. Learn how to best craft and control your communication choices and presence in almost any situation. 

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Transcript

Craig Moen: 0:00

Welcome to business owners radio episode 226. Our guest today is Dr. Jeanine Turner, author of the award winning book being present, commanding attention at work and at home by managing your social presence. Jeanine helps executives around the world gain a strengthened sense of how to best communicate their presence. She provides strategies for addressing the challenges of engaging attention in a world of digital devices. She is an award winning teacher and has published and presented her work nationally and internationally. She has worked within the public and private sectors including KPMG, Microsoft, the NFL Players Association, Rolls Royce, sprint and US Senate, as well as the Department of Defense and the World Bank. Good morning, Janine. Welcome to business owners radio. Good morning, sir. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me on the hour, so excited about this new book being present commanding attention at work and at home by managing your social presence. Tell us what inspired you to write this book? Well, I've been thinking about this probably, since my Ph. D. program when I study telemedicine back at Ohio State that's 25 years ago. But I've been thinking about how technology really changes the nature of how we are socially present with each other, we think of mindfulness is how your present kind of in the world, I think of social presence is how I'm present with someone else in conversation. And what I've seen just over time, is how different technologies have been introduced that pull us away from the conversations that we're in. And so more and more it's made us need to make decisions about how we would be socially present. And I guess one specific example was I was at work on a phone call with someone. And I was also trying to entertain my six month old at the same time. And just the challenge of trying to be two people at the same time within the context of almost synchronous conversations really hit me how hard it is to think about this from a practical standpoint. And that kind of gave birth to this research that I did and what I call multi communicating. So that's kind of really what inspired it, academic research around multi communicating, I did some research in that area. And then I decided to write a book with some practical suggestions around that. Yeah, wow. It's amazing how these different ideas are sort of colliding, you know, that sort of the digital overload of the information age, right, and all of these new interrupters in our lives. So not just the devices themselves, you know, the ever present smartphones, and tablets and computers, but really the platforms and social media, and all of these different inbound channels, you know, more than we've ever had before. And then I think, you know, living through the pandemic, and forcing a lot more remote work on all of us. Boy, I feel like that just brought everything almost to a boiling point. So I agree that the last few years have been really problematic. But I think it really started with the introduction of the smartphone and diffusion of X smartphone. And as people had access to more and more technology that could distract them from the conversation that they were in and pull them away. It has huge implications for how they were socially present at any one time, then when the pandemic hit, and we kind of combined work in home, it became even more problematic. So it's almost three things that are going on. It's the introduction of technology, like what you mentioned, in platforms. And then it was this push for efficiency, because we could get all these things done at once. So we would allow our conversations to be disrupted by these devices. And then third, with the pandemic, we saw this collapse of structure around work and home as a container, which made it even more problematic. So I think those three things kind of led to where we are right now certainly leads the charge. Now when you think of all of those ingredients, right? And then I can't help but also think about like, knowing what you're up against in this environment. And knowing almost like a force multiplier, the social engineering factor, right, where it's not just the existence of platforms, but the engineering of these platforms by design to get and keep our attention for as long as possible. And then bad actors on the platforms, creating clickbait and other things. It's just like this constant battle despite anyone's best efforts, and it just feels like it happened in an instant, even though like you said, it's been almost two decades running. Well, it's interesting, you're bringing up about the social engineering because I think that absolutely is a part of our conversations where we're distracted or it's awkward conversation or we don't agree with what

Dr. Jeanine Turner: 5:00

going on in the conversation, and people can't see us, a lot of those social engineering factors can come into play where we're looking for something else to be interested to focus on. Because we don't want to focus on that conversation. Say you're in a video call, and you don't want to listen to the video call or or audio call, or you're in a face to face meeting, and you want to just engage. So I think a lot of those social engineering aspects, whether it's with advertising, or other persuasive tools that pull us away and kind of try and distract us, I think that's one big element of it. And then on top of that, because we have these tools that allow us to be connected at any one time, there's a greater a greater expectation for response time. So even when you're not talking about advertisement, you're talking about my boss expects this within the next two minutes, my team expects this within the next 15 minutes, or they need this for me. So you have this sense of I have to respond. And then with the kind of change towards hybrid work, or even just within the context of the pandemic, people tried to manage the impression of themselves in front of their organization or for their manager, because they didn't have a physical presence of showing up. So they had to digitally show up. And I think as we've gotten back into that hybrid space, or there's been more logistics, when we were all stuck in one house, we didn't have to worry about the logistics. And somehow we were able to get all these things done. And then when you still have the pressure of getting this much done in a certain amount of time. And then on top of that, you have to add logistics as people drive around to different places, they have to drop people off or get to somewhere, it's made it almost unsustainable to me and I agree that just seems to be overwhelming at some times. And as business owners, at times, we have this reaction to a perceived communications and requirement. However, what we do is sort of the shoot Ready Aim response. Tell me about on your research about sort of the pause between triaging how you should be reacting at different levels for different things? Well, I think that's a really great question to think about pausing and being intentional. And I think, because of our kind of desire to empty out an email box, or to go through our text messages just to kind of get this sense of efficiency going. We forget that the people that we are communicating with are human beings and not test to be juggled. And so you really have to think about three different things when you're thinking through messaging and communicating. And that's context in terms of what's the situation that I'm in? What are the requirements of that situation, the expectations of that situation? Relationship? Who am I engaging with? And what am I trying to communicate in that relationship? Is this person have status over me? Do I really want to show I value that relationship? And in addition to context and relationship also message? Does this message requires some extra thought and extra reflection? Or is it something quick that I can just send? Is it complex? And could actually have ambiguous messages that I need to be careful how I craft it? Or is it something quick and simple that I can send? And so I think sometimes what happens to your point, Craig, is that this desire to respond and be responsive, kind of takes over everything. And we don't think about context, relationship and message. In fact, in one organization that I worked with, they had an employee handbook. And in that handbook, there was kind of like rules for how to succeed in the organization or kind of expectations, right. And in the handbook, there was two rules, along with many others. But one said, If your boss should reach out to you and need something, you need to respond within 15 minutes, the same manual, it said, if you're in a presentation, don't look at your phone, you have to stay focused on the presentation the whole time if you're in a meeting. So if meetings lasts longer than 15 minutes, there's no way you could do both things and be successful in that organization. So I think there's sometimes perceived expectations around how fast I need to be. And then there's sometimes unrealistic set expectations around how fast I need to respond. I recall in your book, you were mentioning a framework for being present. And I find it fascinating how you can define segments, and you mentioned some of those segments in attentiveness. And in real time trying to figure out okay, how do I categorize this? And how do I move on to a bit more about that? Well, I'll have to tell you, what I'm really excited about the book is a lot of times people think about practical tools like what specifically should I do? What am I three steps, so three check takeaways. And when I started writing the book, it was prior to the pandemic. And what I was really noticing was there was these challenges with how people were present, and that there was four different kinds of ways to think about strategies for being socially present. The first was this idea that people were on their phones most of the time, that's kind of your default. So when I call that budgeted presence where people are budgeting part of their attention to some people part of their attention to somebody else, but they're true. I mean, almost multi communicate being multiple conversations at once. That's really where we are most of the time. That's our default state, when we're not in that, and when we're in conversation with someone else, we really have three choices. And these have to do with, you have to deal with the fact that not only do I have technology that I'm holding on to that could distract me, but so do you, and what am I going to do with that in this conversation? So the first choice would be entitled, I would just tell you put your phone away, listen to me, focus on me, that's kind of requires me to have some status or power that would make you want to fall into whatever social presence I'm demanding. But entitled, can work in certain situations, then, competitive is another form of social presence. That's where I treat you almost as an investor, I'm trying to persuade you that I am relevant. And what I have to say is necessary for you to hear. And for that to be the case, I need to be communicating something that really matters that is relevant to you. So many times people go to a meeting, and they think, wow, I didn't even need to be here. It's because it wasn't relevant to them. Right. So competitive presence means I'm really recognizing that I'm competing with other people's devices. And then the third form of presence is Invitational. And that's the idea of how do I get in a space where I can be in dialogue with someone else. And the more that we are in budgeted presence, we're distracted, we're in multiple conversations at once we're multitasking, we're not necessarily engaged. The less we're ever Invitational, which is more treating my audience as a partner. Now, the reason I said the point about theory at the beginning, is I started writing this before the pandemic, and I was mostly focused on what do you do when people are on their phone when you're trying to talk to them? Or what do you do if you happen to be in a meeting and you're doing a presentation and people are distracted on their phones? Or what might you do? If you are in a one on one conversation with someone and you notice someone keeps looking at their phone. So it was trying to help people with strategies in those situations or presenters who are dealing with those kinds of situations, then the pandemic came, and everyone was online. So to have a book about this is how you tell someone to put your technology away, didn't make sense at all right? Because everyone had to be on a technology to connect outside their home. But what I love about this framework, which I was really excited about is that entitled presence is really just about telling someone how you want them to be socially present, regardless of the technology. And so you've seen such a pushback from employees, about employers who are telling people you have to come back in the workplace, you have to come back face to face, everyone has to be back on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, or everyone used to be in the physical office on this specific date. And you have to plan for that. And so there's a huge pushback, because that essentially was organizations trying to exert entitled presence on their employees, who are you to tell me how I'm going to be socially present with you? Should I you'll maybe see this just from an academic standpoint, but it's like this whole idea of a lot of times you think, who needs theory, you totally need theory in situations where a world completely changes in a short amount of time. And you have to think about what are the guidelines that can help me be successful?

Craig Moen: 13:16

Oh, yes, absolutely. And I also can't help but think about what we're experiencing right now in the classroom. Students not wanting to really participate in entitled presents, either, as far as you know, treating in person classes now as if they're almost optional, and more and more expecting the teachers to adopt to that idea.

Dr. Jeanine Turner: 13:39

Sure. I totally agree. I think the classroom has always been for me and microcosm of so many other contexts. And I think what's interesting, and I've really seen that I 100% agree with you. The last two years of online education has helped students get the sense of how much agency they do actually have in the classroom, how much choice they really do have, they always had choice whether to pay attention or not. And now they are exerting that choice explicitly. And even when they're there in person, I still feel they have more of a passive approach to the environment and to into engagement than they used to. It's much harder to get a dialogue going and create kind of that Invitational space. And this idea of being of competitive presence, almost persuading people helping audience see students see why do I need to invest in this information has been really, really clear to me just over the last couple of years.

Craig Moen: 14:38

And think about how that translates to the workplace, right? Because think about this for a moment. So you have students and by the way, not just undergraduate graduate students, some working adults paying for their education, paying for that experience, and often choosing to opt out of being present in many different ways right now. And feeling like Well, can I just watch the video of your class, which is now coming up? It's like a regular conversation, at least in my classroom. You're doing better than at that than me. Janine, I don't know.

Dr. Jeanine Turner: 15:09

Yeah, no, no, exactly. Because they got used to not just watch the live video, but you can watch it on the fast forward. So yeah, sit there as long. I love the way you mentioned this, how does this connect back in the workplace, because in a semester long class, you have an entire semester as a student to try and figure out what's going on. So maybe you could argue that maybe you could phone it in a couple of those lectures. And by the end of the semester, you'll be able to pull it off and pull it together in the workplace, every single meeting could be the meeting you needed to be engaged for. So this kind of passive approach to meetings, whether it's the way that you're accessing information, or it's the relationship that you're not establishing, or you're frustrating someone or you're, you're not building the relationship you need that is at stake in every single meeting that you're in. And I think that this passive approach to meetings, whether it's with customers, whether it's with employees, or with just teammates, has a huge impact on how we're building a culture in the workplace.

Craig Moen: 16:14

Sure. And you know, again, if people paying for an experience, want the agency to opt out, what about people that you are paying to show up? You think that they don't want the same kind of agency? And you know, and it also makes me think that, you know, because the challenge will certainly be on us the challenge is on the employers, the challenge is on the folks that are trying to sell product sell themselves, it is on teachers, instructors, who are trying to engage a classroom. And so it makes you question all of these modes, like all of these ways of being, are they going to hold up? Is it time to break them and find new ways of connecting? Because we're certainly in this state of accelerated change, you know, and I think what's so great about your book is at least it gives us some language around how to think about these ways of being present. And the outgrowth of that is maybe Okay, so if this is true, what's next.

Dr. Jeanine Turner: 17:11

So what I think is great about what has happened, there's obviously super big challenges over the last few years. But what is really highlighted is the importance of being articulate and explicit about what your expectations are at any one time. So don't just throw a meeting together. Because we haven't seen people for a long period of time, then we're just going to talk off the top of our heads about an agenda. People from an audience standpoint, and from an employee standpoint, have a very high expectation and a low tolerance level for wasted time. So if you're going to call me into a physical in person, in the same space synchronous meeting, you better have something relevant for me to talk about, because before I was concerned about getting my time wasted. Now, not only am I counting the time, I'm in your meeting, I'm counting the time I had to drive in, which actually never used to be counted against the employer. I mean, you had this idea of while I moved this far away, but that's on me, because I decided to move this far away. So I had this commute. But work started when I walked into the office. Now because I actually could work from home, I think employees are thinking, wow, work starts when I get in the car, because you told me I had to come into the office. And so I think in many ways, it's forcing us to be better communicators, because we really have to think, what's the purpose of this meeting? What is the ask? Is everyone that I'm asking to come into this meeting? Do they all have a decision to make when it comes to this asked? And I think it's forcing us to really think about being as clear as we possibly can about how we're communicating. And when we need to be communicating. Same with dialogue. People talk about oh, my gosh, we have to get people back in the workplace for these watercooler conversations, which just cracks me up because even just that idea, I mean, who sits around the watercooler? Not all the people that disagree, but the people that agree. So I don't know that it was such a great conversations around the watercooler. However, those were not structured conversations, those were not explicitly designed by the organization. They just happen because we were in the container of the organization. So I think what's happening is, with all of these kind of guidelines and explicit structures kind of dissolving. It's forcing us to be very clear, what kind of conversation Am I trying to have? What kind of a meeting Am I trying to have? What kind of decision am I trying to make? What kind of meeting and interaction do I need for that meeting? The most expensive space in your organization is synchronous space. The most expensive space is synchronous space. Now synchronous face on video, not so expensive. Everybody is allowed to turn their cameras off and basically treat your meeting as a podcast where they're doing something in the background right but synchronous Physical in person space, the most expensive

Unknown: 20:04

to me, and I love this scenario of this relationship between employer and employee and the changed world that we're in. There are certain styles, cultures, values that various companies have. And those values need to be looked at occasionally, and in this day and age, probably need a an updated review of what's to be expected, what's normal, what's not normal, and what fits, is this effective in the hiring process to to make sure that there is a process in place that touches on presence as far as that candidates present style and see if there's a good fit between both employer and potential hire

Dr. Jeanine Turner: 20:46

100%? I agree, I 100% agree. It needs to be an orientation kind of conversation. But what's really critical is the whole organization needs to think about what does presence mean for us? What does culture mean for us in this hybrid environment, I was a part of an orientation meeting in the summer with a financial organization. And there was maybe 50 new recruits that were there. And I was going to talk about some of these ideas around presidents. But before I spoke, about five different vice presidents got up and kind of introduce themselves to give these new recruits kind of their advice on how to succeed going forward. And they all stress the importance of making relationships and networking and making sure you get to know people and make sure you build a strong network. And I looked around the room and people were just confused. How do I do that in this hybrid space. And that is something we have to negotiate as an organization. Because most of the people that are already in the organization maybe have already built those relationships, they are not going to think about relationship building and networking and conversation in the same way as someone that is joining an organization that has never met anyone in the organization and has to figure out from kind of Ground Zero how to engage. I mean, I think this is a conversation the whole organization needs to have, what type of presence do we want? How are we going to make norms around and guidelines around presence? And how are we going to encourage new people that come into the organization to better understand who we are as an organization and what we value?

Unknown: 22:21

This harkens back to memories in the past of these introductions that you receive as a new employee at all levels. And you're being talked to by people at high levels that you'll never see again, totally, totally agree with you that it starts from the top, you know, the influences and the presence that's available at the top all the way down. And how that reflects in this meeting, like to jump back to one thing you had was excellent. As far as use of time, I think a lot of people are really evaluating what's a waste of time, and how can I be more effective? And how can organizations and businesses become more effective to link in with that and match in with that to really be synergistic? Back a memory of meetings have had previous decades at different governments, institutions and contractors where standup meetings were very normal. And especially the high levels of executives in the sea level, in which you come in, stand up meeting and all the phones are left at the entryway on very nice tray with padding and everything. And it's a stand up meeting. And it really forces the speed, which keeps everybody's presence continuously. So there's sort of a presence test, I think, for any meeting or communication, that probably should be some standards behind it, or agreements amongst all parties of how they're going to use each other's time. What have you seen in your research?

Dr. Jeanine Turner: 23:56

So absolutely. I think that creating these kind of explicit guidelines around what are our expectations is really critical. And I think that what's great about those huddle meetings, or standup meetings that you talked about, is that by standing and by putting the phones explicitly away, all of those were nonverbal signals that said, we're going to get through this in a very focused and efficient way and if it needs to be relevant for everybody in the room. And I think we have to figure out how do we create similar signaling or conversations and guidelines around all of our meetings, video meeting can go on way, way too long. Because no one is pushing nonverbally the person to finish up, especially if all the cameras are off and everyone's not paying attention anyway, we could easily turn into organizations and situations where people aren't paying attention very much. So I think it really requires a lot of explicit guidelines just like these explicit nonverbals. And it's not just for efficiency for meetings. It's also for relationship building. So just like we use To have this space where before the meeting, maybe built friendships with someone, and then maybe after the meeting, we were walking out of that meeting and had a friendship with someone or talked a little bit more about something else relationship building, we don't have that in the same way anymore. But we still have to figure out how to explicitly create relationship building within organizations. And I've seen a number of organizations, especially ones that have kind of gone to this work anywhere model have worked in explicit examples of social opportunities for engagement, as well as kind of task oriented opportunities for engagement to make sure that you're building capability in both areas.

Craig Moen: 25:38

So Janine, another thing that I've been thinking a lot about from reading your book is how social presence could affect the way we think about communicating with customers? What kinds of considerations should we have, and we want to try to design standards for maybe more successful customer interactions.

Dr. Jeanine Turner: 25:55

So I think what's so great about the customer example, or the customer idea that you're talking about is, when you're thinking about a customer, you're really trying to figure out what is this customer need, what matters to them, what's most relevant to them, what will help them really engage with whatever it is I'm trying to sell or an idea or a product. And I actually think that customer model is a great metaphor for how we have to think about every single audience that we engage with. If you think about people, as investors or customers, then you're going to think about your content in a very different way. Now, your specific question about customers. When I think about customers, I think about many salespeople that might have had more of a physical in person sale, where they were involved in relationship, building dinners, spending time with the customer, and then kind of being a problem solver, or collaborator. And in many customers minds, when they went online, they gained a lot of time, because they're not spending all this time with salespeople or different people that are managing different products. And so in their mind, they can think about the efficiency of their buying decision, rather than how it's wrapped within this relationship that they have. And so I think it's a really challenging time for salespeople. But we are all in many ways in that exact same position. And so I think it goes right back to what is it that you're trying to communicate and what matters to your audience, because if you're solving a problem that your audience has, you're going to have their attention. If you're solving a problem that's relevant to your audience, you're going to have their attention. If you're solving something that can help them be more effective, you're going to have their attention. And I think that it's forcing us to be laser focused on the customer need, or the audience need in a way that we've never had to be before.

Craig Moen: 27:43

As business owners, we are always trying to measure engagement at some level, right? So whether it's employee engagement, or customer engagement, we have sort of this insatiable need for attention and understanding if we're reaching people, and of course, closing sales, meeting our revenue goals. And I sense this challenge here, you talked about the cost of face to face engagement. So you think about traditional business development for companies that sell business to business, you know, now, we are asking a customer in that scenario to spend their most expensive time budget on us. We're like demanding their attention. And that's just not the same thing as engagement. And I see opportunities for resentment there. So I'm kind of wondering like, within those contexts, how does this affect how we maybe need to redefine what engagement looks like both in acquiring new customers, and managing our expectations for how we interact with our existing customers?

Dr. Jeanine Turner: 28:46

I think that's such a great question. Because I think in some ways, prior to the pandemic, we were able to bundle many aspects of engagement within maybe one meeting where maybe you figure it out, within the same meeting, you're asking the person about their needs, and their challenges, and then finding ways to address those challenges, maybe in a later meeting, but the richness of face to face allows you to bring in so much information that could then feed into any kind of solution you might bring to that customer, I think now you're gonna have to earn the right to get synchronous face to face in person. And it's only going to be after the person thinks you're going to be relevant to them. So it's almost introducing a gatekeeper role that you have to find a way through other forms of interaction, whether it's email or the way you're advertising or the way you're polling or maybe some giveaway or something. It all depends on different types of customers in different industries. But you're going to have to earn the right to get synchronous face to face in person time. And when you finally get that time, you have to make sure that you've used the previous engagement, the asynchronous tools to feed you the information you need to make much more relevant. So. So I think we have to be a lot more efficient and focused and better at gathering the data that we need in an asynchronous way. So that when we are in synchronous in person or a secret space, that we can make the most of that space in the past, we often might have gotten an opportunity to talk around an issue and hopefully get to a need a customer had, but I don't think we're going to have that luxury of that in the same way. And we have to be able to get to the need faster, and more predictably, within the context of the synchronous space.

Craig Moen: 30:36

Wow, that advice to me is like It's haunting, because you're actually speaking to me, like I'm hearing this on a personal level, I'm just hearing like, this value of this synchronous space and thinking about how to be more deliberate. And I'm thinking about it, you know, because I asked the question in a business context, and I'm thinking about it as it relates to friends and family, we all give each other a hard time, you know, get off the phone, you know, try to pay attention to me for five seconds, or whatever that looks like. But you think about, if you're fortunate enough to be able to go away on vacation, or to spend any time with people you love, we need to figure out how to be more deliberate. Otherwise, we're just wasting it all away.

Dr. Jeanine Turner: 31:17

Otherwise, we're constantly in conversations, distracted all the time, never going deep into any engagement with anyone, whether it's a family member or a customer, just because we're trying to keep up with the barrage of messaging. And I think it's going to be incredibly challenging, which is why I think going forward, being intentional is not about turning your phone off for long periods of time. Because I don't know that we even are going to be able to do that. But being intentional is about thinking on a moment by moment basis, where do I need to be socially present? And that might mean waiting to answer a call when you're in a conversation with one person, right? But then getting back to them after that, as opposed to now, I think we have this idea, we can empty the inbox, or we'll just answer this phone quickly. And then we'll get back to the conversation. And the challenge that I've seen with that is that when we are in budgeted presence, which we are most of the time, we never get to a deeper conversation. And whether that's with a customer or a family member or a friend, that lack of deeper conversation connects very deeply to what it means for us to be human. And we've become less and less connected. So I think it's critical that we stop and start reflecting on how to think about these strategies in our everyday life. Because we're not going to get to a point where we got through the email box, or we got through all the text or we manage all of our messages, we'll never be able to get to that. So instead, we just have to manage the chaos as it's happening. And that means on a moment by moment basis, what's the context? I am? Who's the relationship I'm trying to cultivate? And what's the message?

Craig Moen: 32:54

Well, Janine, this has been an incredible conversation, you've certainly left us with a lot to think about, and we so appreciate you coming out and speaking with us today.

Dr. Jeanine Turner: 33:04

Well, thank you, Shane. Craig, I really enjoyed being here. This has been a fun conversation. And it's helped me to really think about these ideas as well. So thank you so much.

Craig Moen: 33:12

Is there anything else you'd like to leave with our listeners?

Dr. Jeanine Turner: 33:15

Well, thanks. I guess if you enjoyed this conversation, I encourage you to buy the book and connect with me on LinkedIn. After you bought the book. Have you read through it, there's a number of different strategies and opportunities for dialogue and reflection and thinking. So if any of those are helpful to you, I'd love your thoughts. You can email me at Georgetown, but also just connect on LinkedIn. And I'd love to continue the conversation. I feel like through the conversations I've had with people that have read the book and have talked with me about these ideas has helped me to better understand each one of these types of presents and how people are doing it effectively, and some of the challenges they're facing. So I've really enjoyed those conversations, and I've enjoyed to continue the conversations with your listeners.

Unknown: 34:00

Our guest today has been Janine Turner, author of the award winning book being present, commanding attention at work and at home by managing your social presence. You can learn more about Janine as well as find links to her content and book all in our website at business owners radio.com. Thank you for joining us on business owners radio. We hope you enjoy today's show. As always, you can read more about each episode along with links and offers in the show notes and our website. Business owners radio.com. We want to hear your feedback. Please leave comments on this show or suggestions for upcoming episodes. Tell your fellow business owners about the show and of course he would love the stars and comments on iTunes. Till next time, keep taking care of business